David Hearn wrote:
> David Hearn wrote:
>> Bob Minchin wrote:
>>> David Hearn wrote:
>>>> Bob Minchin wrote:
>>>>> David Hearn wrote:
>>>>>> Tim.. wrote:
>>>>>>> "David Hearn" <dave@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:6209p2F20rovqU1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>> Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as
>>>>>>>> in today) idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel
>>>>>>>> it's going to stall (or at least, can imagine that it might).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth.
>>>>>>>> Had it's MOT done last October and passed emmisions fine.
>>>>>>>> Engine wise it's been okay. Slight oil leakage from the head
>>>>>>>> gasket area (front left side) pretty much the entire time we've
>>>>>>>> had it (6 years) - but not enough to cause us to have to top up
>>>>>>>> much between oil changes, some tapping from the cam shaft
>>>>>>>> (again, pretty much the whole time). No issues though with the
>>>>>>>> running of the engine, starts immediately first time every
>>>>>>>> time. Coolant has been okay-ish. No noticable mayo - but the
>>>>>>>> coolant has always looked a bit rusty between changes, and is
>>>>>>>> probably due for a change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per
>>>>>>>> year. Oil change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced
>>>>>>>> a year or so ago when it failed (causing weird electrical
>>>>>>>> issues) - but haven't checked this time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently
>>>>>>>> (last couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on
>>>>>>>> its own. I reset it each time I fill the tank and so noticed
>>>>>>>> when, after half a tank of fuel has been used, it's suddenly
>>>>>>>> reading only a couple of miles.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever
>>>>>>>> we pulled away from a junction, particuarly when changing up
>>>>>>>> gears, it seemed to reset - we saw this happen a few times.
>>>>>>>> Since then though, we've done about 15 miles without it
>>>>>>>> resetting, even though we've had to stop the engine for a bit,
>>>>>>>> and when re-started it was lumpy again. Might be a red-herring
>>>>>>>> - but might be helpful. I'm wondering if it's an electrical
>>>>>>>> problem (coil pack?) causing the trip counter to reset - which
>>>>>>>> may also affect the ignition - but I've got no real idea of
>>>>>>>> *why* it might cause it! Just a wild hypothesis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a single pointer n'est pas? If so, its waaaay past having
>>>>>>> the injector cleaned / replaced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've no idea whether it's single or multi point. The symptoms
>>>>>> appear immediately after starting the engine, even when warm.
>>>>>> After driving a couple of miles I don't notice any stuttering in
>>>>>> the idling. I tried it at some lights yesterday after driving for
>>>>>> a bit, immediately after restarting it was lumpy again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also noticed yesterday that it has started idling quite fast on
>>>>>> occasions - not all the time and went for a bit after stopping and
>>>>>> restarting the engine (but got the stuttering/lumpyness again).
>>>>>> No idea of the actual RPM as my rev counter has no dial (the
>>>>>> speedo motor died a while back and I swapped motors to get a
>>>>>> working speedo - cheaper than £400 for a new instrument cluster
>>>>>> from Peugeot).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Otherwise check the stepper motor and linkage for dryness /
>>>>>>> stiffness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where's the stepper motor, and how would I check it? ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> D
>>>>> Highly likely to be the Idle control valve/stepper motor sticking.
>>>>> I read of these only having 50k miles life. (my 405 ICV is playing
>>>>> up at 88k miles)
>>>>> Look for an electrically controlled valve with hoses in and out
>>>>> effectively bypassing the throttle butterfly. Sometimes these can
>>>>> be cleaned with carb cleaner and last a little longer.
>>>>> New ones (for my 405) are about £50 from GSF and double that from
Pug.
>>>>> Not all ICVs are true stepper motors. Mine is a DC motor with two
>>>>> windings (three terminals) which by varying the current in the two
>>>>> coils can turn the armature though 90 degrees, enough to operate a
>>>>> valve between fully closed and fully open.
>>>>>
>>>>> hth
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> Well, I think I've found the stepper motor! After searching on eBay
>>>> I came up with a similar picture, but not identical. See
>>>>
<http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Peugeot-Idle-valve-stepper-motor-A1678-A1459-B32-00_W0QQitemZ330211820370QQihZ014QQcategoryZ10406QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>
>>>> and/or <http://i7.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a3/74/f16c_1.JPG>.
I think
>>>> the part number is 1920 6W "Regulator MOT" in the parts CD.
>>>>
>>>> The difference is that the black part of the shaft on my one is
>>>> about twice the length.
>>>>
>>>> The silver tip will rotate/move back and forth a tiny, tiny amount
>>>> (more like play than intentional rotation as it's so tiny). The
>>>> black bit on the shaft is a spring loaded collar over the inner
>>>> shaft which connects to the silver tip. This black collar rotates
>>>> fine, although with a little friction - more akin to the friction
>>>> due to the end of the spring than anything else.
>>>>
>>>> Other that that, nothing appears to move. Cannot rotate the tip,
>>>> and cannot work out how the collar could drive anything.
>>>>
>>>> My only conclusion is that this actually moves in and out, rather
>>>> than rotates. Hence the lack of rotation of the tip, and a spring
>>>> loaded collar around the shaft. Unfortunatately, this probably
>>>> means its worm driven, and thus cannot be moved manually (I
>>>> certainly couldn't!) - so difficult to be able to check whether it's
>>>> working right.
>>>>
>>>> What would happen if I just wired it back into the car, but didn't
>>>> mount it? Should I then expect it to move? What about the fact
>>>> that there's a big hole where it used to be? I don't want to spend
>>>> quite a bit of money on it if this one is perfectly fine if this one
>>>> could be tested somehow.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>
>>> Your ICV is completely different from mine which is shown here and it
>>> works differently.
>>>
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/9fingersphotos/IdleControlValve.jpg.
>>>
>>>
>>> Find something about the same size as the actuator and use that to
>>> control the engine speed manually. If the stepper is working
>>> properly, then you should see it smoothly move from one extreme to
>>> the other depending of whether the idle speed that your are
>>> controlling manually is above or below the set speed.
>>> Make sure the engine is not cold when you do thus and that the aircon
>>> is off and that the throttle is fully closed. I.e. you must be
>>> simulating tickover conditions.
>>> Bob
>>
>> Well, I tried this - and as I turned the ignition on (not to start) I
>> could see it move forward. As I started it, it moved out a bit
>> further. As I turned it off, it moved out a bit further! As I tried
>> to re-fit it, I noticed that it was now too long to fit into the
>> hole! I thought I would screw it in as much as I could, and then hope
>> that it might go backwards, and then I could tighten it. As I tried
>> to do this, it all came apart!
>>
>> As I expected, the centre shaft was threaded with a threaded rotor to
>> the motor, driving it forwards and backwards (linear actuator?) and it
>> had driven itself off the thread. Impossible to screw back in, you
>> have to turn the motor to draw it back in. In the end I got it in as
>> far as I could, then held it against the engine block whilst the car
>> was started a couple of times, ignition turned on and off and
>> eventually it drew itself back into the motor.
>>
>> I did the screws up and started it - started first time and ran
>> smoothly for a minute or two. Couple of small jumps up and down in
>> the idle speed, but constant at those speeds for a while. Just need
>> to take it for a test drive now.
>>
>> The stepper motor shaft and tip was very heavily coated in oily gunk.
>> Couldn't see how it would cause a problem, but I did clean it well,
>> and when it came apart, I cleaned the thread of the centre shaft.
>> Where it fits inside, I couldn't work out what it pushed (couldn't
>> feel anything of any resistance when prodding in there) but what I did
>> put in there came out with a slight oily gunky coating (rather than
>> just clean oil). I stuffed a bit of kitchen towel in there to try
>> cleaning it a bit.
>>
>> Maybe I do need a new stepper motor - I don't know. Maybe it was just
>> really dirty - have to see if the problem returns - or whether it's
>> really fixed at all after a drive. Does make me wonder though, why
>> it's so dirty in there though. It should only be oil, air and fuel
>> going through there I'm guessing.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> D
>
> Well, didn't sort it (still stalling, hard to start without foot on
> accelerator). Long story short, it's now in a independent Peugeot
> specialist garage who tried re-initialising the new stepper motor (may
> not have done it properly myself) but didn't completely solve it.
>
> Put diagnostics on it and said that it's giving 2 errors. Stepper motor
> (which is hopefully now historic) and MAP sensor. He's going to try
> replacing that to see whether it solves it.
>
> Any idea whether it sounds right, and the sort of cost for the part?
They just called back with the price - just under £65 for the MAP sensor
(I think inc VAT), and total cost of about £100 (again I think inc VAT)
once the labour, testing etc is included.
Just checked GSF - don't know whether it's the right one, but they list
(N92538) 306 MAP sensor as £46.50 (£54 inc), so not too bad.
Sound right? I hope it solves it!
Thanks
D
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