Re: Welcome to the Big Time, Bourdais

"AC" <xxxx@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:Ym_Dj.13683$5i5.8052@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "." <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
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> > "AC" <xxxx@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > news:wuTDj.22955$kN5.22247@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >> "." <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > news:hEPDj.32260$yk5.26216@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> > "Mike P" <privacy@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >> > news:649dmdF2b18jeU1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> <another big snip
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >> I suspect you will counter that by saying that Seabass never
beat
> >> > anyone
> >> >> >> good in Champcar... which is just the same as AGR in the IRL
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Mike P
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Trying to compare CARTs all time winningest driver, Ayrton
> >> >> > Senna's teammate, plus the IRL's winningest team owner,
> >> >> > two time Indy 500 and 3 time season champions and all in
> >> >> > just five short years with arguably one of the most famous
> >> >> > names in the world, to a nobody competing against nameless
> >> >> > competition, virtually no accomplishments or respect driving
> >> >> > for a winless perennial bottom dwelling team?!?!?! I think
> >> >> > Paul (Marlon Brando) in "Ultimo Tango a Parigi" ("Last
> >> >> > Tango in Paris") might have said it best when he uttered
> >> >> > the infamous words: "What a steaming pile of horse****!".
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Get your facts straight, Michael NEVER won the Indy 500 as a
driver.
> >> >
> >> > More canard, of course I neither said nor implied that he
> >> > had won it as a driver, as I've in fact stated before:
> >> >
> >> > "Michael Andretti has now won the Indy 500 twice, in
> >> > the same manner that Roger Penske is said to have
> >> > won it more than a dozern times, despite the fact that
> >> > the latter never once led a single lap or even so much
> >> > as participated in it as a driver ..."
> >> >
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.s****t.cart/msg/b56ac8bfb714e3ad
> >> >
> >> >> I quote.....  "to a nobody competing against nameless
competition"...
> > you
> >> >> yourself, Mr Dot, admitted the IRL was a pile of ****e before
2003.
So
> > in
> >> >> fact competing against nobodies is exactly what AGR have been
doing
> >> >>
> >> >> You're funny, it's ace
> >> >>
> >> >> Mike P
> >> >
> >> > But there were years in which the CART/CCWS/OWRS/
> >> > ChumpCar drivers did in fact compete in the IRL Indy 500.
> >> > But of course doofus AGR never competed, or existed, in
> >> > the IRL prior to 2003. What a complete and utter moron.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Of course Micheal Andretti was a 3rd rate driver who fundamentally
failed
> > in
> >> the elite F1 series, but to call him an utter moron is a bit much.
> >>
> >> AC
> >
> > Well what do you want? He was the all time winningest
> > driver from a series that losers the likes of Mario Andretti,
> > Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Bobby Rahal, AJ Foyt,
> > Rick Mears, Gordon Johncock, Johnny Rutherford, Juan
> > Pablo Montoya, the Unsers and untold numbers of other
> > total amateurs and complete failures participated in.
> >
> > Surely mere mortals, unlike yourself, can't reasonably be
> > expected to bask in and savor the sheer fame, fortune and
> > unearthly accomplishment that gods like you regularly enjoy.
> >
> >
>
> THINK before you type. You seem so hyped up that you just hit the
keyboard
> with out thinking. I have posted here once before and, oh, come
on.........
>
> Right, to be horribly fair, I didn't think Andretti got a fair crack at
F1.
> He was far better than his F1 effort showed.
>
> My Indy/Cart/Andretti history:
> Like many Brits, I only noticed the Indy/Cart thing when Mansell came
over
> and took Andretti's seat at Newman Hass. I also thought it rather groovy
> that this "yank" driver had been signed by Mclaren. So, cool all round,
> right? The Brit F1 driver goes to the US to mess things up and the yanks
> reply in kind by sending their man to F1. Very cool :)
>
> So, Mansell goes and wins the Cart series and Andretti failed miserably
and
> goes back to the US. Then, when I saw Andretti in that series, it was
clear
> to me that he was a pretty good driver. I don't remember details, but I
do
> remember he was pretty good, and fun to watch. Andretti looked piss
stupid
> in F1, yet here he was driving like a demon in the US. So, something was
not
> right.
>
> Later on I read this article talking about MA's F1 experience. Amongst
other
> things, it was said that Mario interfered with his sons time there. IIRC
the
> biggest issue was that he 'advised' Michael against moving to the UK,
where
> Mclaren are based. Amongst other things, the biggest issue was that
Michael
> got far less testing and never 'bonded' with the team. There was a whole
> string of other things, but I really cant remember. None the less, it
seemed
> MA had a pretty rough time, but a lot of it was either his or his
fathers
> doing.
>
> The other thing I read in that article, was that Mansell benefited from
a
> well sorted Newman Hass car. The car that Andretti had spent the
previous
> season setting up.
>
> So, while I could never see MA as a "great" driver, in any sense of the
> word, I don't think he was a steaming pile of ****e. He did achieve a
lot
in
> the US racing series. But he never cut it at the highest level, which is
a
> pity. Had he been able to take F1 seriously he may well have do well
there
> too.
>
> I can well understand why Americans may well, quite rightly, wor****p MA,
but
> in a worldwide context, he doesn't amount to much. And that's a darn
shame
> because IMHO he never gave himself a proper chance, and I reckon he had
the
> talent to do a hell of a lot better in F1.
>
> I mean, JV won a F1 WDC for gods sake. Surely MA could have?
>
> AC

Well, you seem a reasonable chap and made some worthy
points. I'd like to expand on a few, the veracity of which
were well publicized, that the jealous Andretti haters like
to either ignore, pretend didn't exist or wish that the facts
were otherwise.

Many factors came together that limited Andretti's
op****tunity for quick success: unlike most other and
European drivers it was the first time he had seen those
tracks (let alone raced on them), the car was said to
be particularly difficult to drive that year, rules changes
greatly reduced testing time and Mika Hakkinen was
granted the bulk of that allocation. With Michael not
allowed to test, the need and value of his moving
to Europe was dubious at best (what would he do
while there?). In addition, there's clearly an anti-
American bias in F1, many others have done much
worse yet were allowed sufficient op****tunity to
fairly guage their talent.

That being said I think the fact of the matter is that
neither Mario's nor Michael's successes were due
to an over abundance of natural talent. I believe that
the both of them (the latter more out of a sense of
obligation than the former) benefitted mainly from
sheer hard work, determination and perserverance,
virtues even more respectable than the achievement
of having been "born on 3rd base and thought of as
hitting a home run". Whereas Mario, a poor DP from
an immigrant camp was able to attain his goal as a
professional racer and is now considered one of the
world's greatest drivers, Michael is finally able to live
his own lifelong dream as a successful businessman.