"." <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message news:...
> "AC" <xxxx@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:Ym_Dj.13683$5i5.8052@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > "." <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:clVDj.80949$Ft5.72234@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > "AC" <xxxx@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > > news:wuTDj.22955$kN5.22247@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >>
> > >> "." <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > > news:hEPDj.32260$yk5.26216@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >> > "Mike P" <privacy@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > >> > news:649dmdF2b18jeU1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >> >> <another big snip
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> I suspect you will counter that by saying that Seabass never
beat
> > >> > anyone
> > >> >> >> good in Champcar... which is just the same as AGR in the IRL
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Mike P
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Trying to compare CARTs all time winningest driver, Ayrton
> > >> >> > Senna's teammate, plus the IRL's winningest team owner,
> > >> >> > two time Indy 500 and 3 time season champions and all in
> > >> >> > just five short years with arguably one of the most famous
> > >> >> > names in the world, to a nobody competing against nameless
> > >> >> > competition, virtually no accomplishments or respect driving
> > >> >> > for a winless perennial bottom dwelling team?!?!?! I think
> > >> >> > Paul (Marlon Brando) in "Ultimo Tango a Parigi" ("Last
> > >> >> > Tango in Paris") might have said it best when he uttered
> > >> >> > the infamous words: "What a steaming pile of horseshit!".
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Get your facts straight, Michael NEVER won the Indy 500 as a
driver.
> > >> >
> > >> > More canard, of course I neither said nor implied that he
> > >> > had won it as a driver, as I've in fact stated before:
> > >> >
> > >> > "Michael Andretti has now won the Indy 500 twice, in
> > >> > the same manner that Roger Penske is said to have
> > >> > won it more than a dozern times, despite the fact that
> > >> > the latter never once led a single lap or even so much
> > >> > as participated in it as a driver ..."
> > >> >
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.sport.cart/msg/b56ac8bfb714e3ad
> > >> >
> > >> >> I quote..... "to a nobody competing against nameless
> competition"...
> > > you
> > >> >> yourself, Mr Dot, admitted the IRL was a pile of shite before
2003.
> So
> > > in
> > >> >> fact competing against nobodies is exactly what AGR have been
doing
> > >> >>
> > >> >> You're funny, it's ace
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Mike P
> > >> >
> > >> > But there were years in which the CART/CCWS/OWRS/
> > >> > ChumpCar drivers did in fact compete in the IRL Indy 500.
> > >> > But of course doofus AGR never competed, or existed, in
> > >> > the IRL prior to 2003. What a complete and utter moron.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Of course Micheal Andretti was a 3rd rate driver who fundamentally
> failed
> > > in
> > >> the elite F1 series, but to call him an utter moron is a bit much.
> > >>
> > >> AC
> > >
> > > Well what do you want? He was the all time winningest
> > > driver from a series that losers the likes of Mario Andretti,
> > > Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Bobby Rahal, AJ Foyt,
> > > Rick Mears, Gordon Johncock, Johnny Rutherford, Juan
> > > Pablo Montoya, the Unsers and untold numbers of other
> > > total amateurs and complete failures participated in.
> > >
> > > Surely mere mortals, unlike yourself, can't reasonably be
> > > expected to bask in and savor the sheer fame, fortune and
> > > unearthly accomplishment that gods like you regularly enjoy.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > THINK before you type. You seem so hyped up that you just hit the
keyboard
> > with out thinking. I have posted here once before and, oh, come
> on.........
> >
> > Right, to be horribly fair, I didn't think Andretti got a fair crack
at
> F1.
> > He was far better than his F1 effort showed.
> >
> > My Indy/Cart/Andretti history:
> > Like many Brits, I only noticed the Indy/Cart thing when Mansell came
over
> > and took Andretti's seat at Newman Hass. I also thought it rather
groovy
> > that this "yank" driver had been signed by Mclaren. So, cool all
round,
> > right? The Brit F1 driver goes to the US to mess things up and the
yanks
> > reply in kind by sending their man to F1. Very cool :)
> >
> > So, Mansell goes and wins the Cart series and Andretti failed
miserably
> and
> > goes back to the US. Then, when I saw Andretti in that series, it was
> clear
> > to me that he was a pretty good driver. I don't remember details, but
I
do
> > remember he was pretty good, and fun to watch. Andretti looked piss
stupid
> > in F1, yet here he was driving like a demon in the US. So, something
was
> not
> > right.
> >
> > Later on I read this article talking about MA's F1 experience. Amongst
> other
> > things, it was said that Mario interfered with his sons time there.
IIRC
> the
> > biggest issue was that he 'advised' Michael against moving to the UK,
> where
> > Mclaren are based. Amongst other things, the biggest issue was that
> Michael
> > got far less testing and never 'bonded' with the team. There was a
whole
> > string of other things, but I really cant remember. None the less, it
> seemed
> > MA had a pretty rough time, but a lot of it was either his or his
fathers
> > doing.
> >
> > The other thing I read in that article, was that Mansell benefited
from
a
> > well sorted Newman Hass car. The car that Andretti had spent the
previous
> > season setting up.
> >
> > So, while I could never see MA as a "great" driver, in any sense of
the
> > word, I don't think he was a steaming pile of shite. He did achieve a
lot
> in
> > the US racing series. But he never cut it at the highest level, which
is
a
> > pity. Had he been able to take F1 seriously he may well have do well
there
> > too.
> >
> > I can well understand why Americans may well, quite rightly, worship
MA,
> but
> > in a worldwide context, he doesn't amount to much. And that's a darn
shame
> > because IMHO he never gave himself a proper chance, and I reckon he
had
> the
> > talent to do a hell of a lot better in F1.
> >
> > I mean, JV won a F1 WDC for gods sake. Surely MA could have?
> >
> > AC
>
> Well, you seem a reasonable chap and made some worthy
> points. I'd like to expand on a few, the veracity of which
> were well publicized, that the jealous Andretti haters like
> to either ignore, pretend didn't exist or wish that the facts
> were otherwise.
>
> Many factors came together that limited Andretti's
> opportunity for quick success: unlike most other and
> European drivers it was the first time he had seen those
> tracks (let alone raced on them), the car was said to
> be particularly difficult to drive that year, rules changes
> greatly reduced testing time and Mika Hakkinen was
> granted the bulk of that allocation. With Michael not
> allowed to test, the need and value of his moving
> to Europe was dubious at best (what would he do
> while there?). In addition, there's clearly an anti-
> American bias in F1, many others have done much
> worse yet were allowed sufficient opportunity to
> fairly guage their talent.
>
> That being said I think the fact of the matter is that
> neither Mario's nor Michael's successes were due
> to an over abundance of natural talent. I believe that
> the both of them (the latter more out of a sense of
> obligation than the former) benefitted mainly from
> sheer hard work, determination and perserverance,
> virtues even more respectable than the achievement
> of having been "born on 3rd base and thought of as
> hitting a home run". Whereas Mario, a poor DP from
> an immigrant camp was able to attain his goal as a
> professional racer and is now considered one of the
> world's greatest drivers, Michael is finally able to live
> his own lifelong dream as a successful businessman.
>
Addendum:
Re-reading your original post I noticed that I failed to
address one other point you alluded to that I could and
should have made that I've mentioned (twice) here before.
Upon Michael's return to Cart from his F1 foray in the
first race of the season, Nigel was again driving the reigning
championship car the team of Michael and his father had
for years developed. Michael however, despite piloting an
untested, brand spanking new Reynard chassis with a 4 year
formerly winless team, famously administered nothing short
of a driving lesson to the former F1 champ (who admitted
that a chimp could have won his only title in that world
championship car) and earned Chip Ganassi Racing its first
victory. It is my considered opinion that both this demoralizing
turn of events played a part in old Nige's retirment at the end
of the season and that if he is considered to be a great driver,
then so too could Michael.
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