On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:44:41 -0600, "." <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>"." <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message news:...
>> "AC" <xxxx@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> news:Ym_Dj.13683$5i5.8052@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >
>> > "." <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> news:clVDj.80949$Ft5.72234@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > > "AC" <xxxx@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> > > news:wuTDj.22955$kN5.22247@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >>
>> > >> "." <.@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> > > news:hEPDj.32260$yk5.26216@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >> > "Mike P" <privacy@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> > >> > news:649dmdF2b18jeU1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > >> >> <another big snip
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >> I suspect you will counter that by saying that Seabass never
>beat
>> > >> > anyone
>> > >> >> >> good in Champcar... which is just the same as AGR in the IRL
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >>
>> > >> >> >> Mike P
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Trying to compare CARTs all time winningest driver, Ayrton
>> > >> >> > Senna's teammate, plus the IRL's winningest team owner,
>> > >> >> > two time Indy 500 and 3 time season champions and all in
>> > >> >> > just five short years with arguably one of the most famous
>> > >> >> > names in the world, to a nobody competing against nameless
>> > >> >> > competition, virtually no accomplishments or respect driving
>> > >> >> > for a winless perennial bottom dwelling team?!?!?! I think
>> > >> >> > Paul (Marlon Brando) in "Ultimo Tango a Parigi" ("Last
>> > >> >> > Tango in Paris") might have said it best when he uttered
>> > >> >> > the infamous words: "What a steaming pile of horse****!".
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Get your facts straight, Michael NEVER won the Indy 500 as a
>driver.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > More canard, of course I neither said nor implied that he
>> > >> > had won it as a driver, as I've in fact stated before:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > "Michael Andretti has now won the Indy 500 twice, in
>> > >> > the same manner that Roger Penske is said to have
>> > >> > won it more than a dozern times, despite the fact that
>> > >> > the latter never once led a single lap or even so much
>> > >> > as participated in it as a driver ..."
>> > >> >
>>
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.s****t.cart/msg/b56ac8bfb714e3ad
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> I quote..... "to a nobody competing against nameless
>> competition"...
>> > > you
>> > >> >> yourself, Mr Dot, admitted the IRL was a pile of ****e before
>2003.
>> So
>> > > in
>> > >> >> fact competing against nobodies is exactly what AGR have been
>doing
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> You're funny, it's ace
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Mike P
>> > >> >
>> > >> > But there were years in which the CART/CCWS/OWRS/
>> > >> > ChumpCar drivers did in fact compete in the IRL Indy 500.
>> > >> > But of course doofus AGR never competed, or existed, in
>> > >> > the IRL prior to 2003. What a complete and utter moron.
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >> Of course Micheal Andretti was a 3rd rate driver who fundamentally
>> failed
>> > > in
>> > >> the elite F1 series, but to call him an utter moron is a bit much.
>> > >>
>> > >> AC
>> > >
>> > > Well what do you want? He was the all time winningest
>> > > driver from a series that losers the likes of Mario Andretti,
>> > > Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Bobby Rahal, AJ Foyt,
>> > > Rick Mears, Gordon Johncock, Johnny Rutherford, Juan
>> > > Pablo Montoya, the Unsers and untold numbers of other
>> > > total amateurs and complete failures participated in.
>> > >
>> > > Surely mere mortals, unlike yourself, can't reasonably be
>> > > expected to bask in and savor the sheer fame, fortune and
>> > > unearthly accomplishment that gods like you regularly enjoy.
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > THINK before you type. You seem so hyped up that you just hit the
>keyboard
>> > with out thinking. I have posted here once before and, oh, come
>> on.........
>> >
>> > Right, to be horribly fair, I didn't think Andretti got a fair crack
at
>> F1.
>> > He was far better than his F1 effort showed.
>> >
>> > My Indy/Cart/Andretti history:
>> > Like many Brits, I only noticed the Indy/Cart thing when Mansell came
>over
>> > and took Andretti's seat at Newman Hass. I also thought it rather
groovy
>> > that this "yank" driver had been signed by Mclaren. So, cool all
round,
>> > right? The Brit F1 driver goes to the US to mess things up and the
yanks
>> > reply in kind by sending their man to F1. Very cool :)
>> >
>> > So, Mansell goes and wins the Cart series and Andretti failed
miserably
>> and
>> > goes back to the US. Then, when I saw Andretti in that series, it was
>> clear
>> > to me that he was a pretty good driver. I don't remember details, but
I
>do
>> > remember he was pretty good, and fun to watch. Andretti looked piss
>stupid
>> > in F1, yet here he was driving like a demon in the US. So, something
was
>> not
>> > right.
>> >
>> > Later on I read this article talking about MA's F1 experience.
Amongst
>> other
>> > things, it was said that Mario interfered with his sons time there.
IIRC
>> the
>> > biggest issue was that he 'advised' Michael against moving to the UK,
>> where
>> > Mclaren are based. Amongst other things, the biggest issue was that
>> Michael
>> > got far less testing and never 'bonded' with the team. There was a
whole
>> > string of other things, but I really cant remember. None the less, it
>> seemed
>> > MA had a pretty rough time, but a lot of it was either his or his
>fathers
>> > doing.
>> >
>> > The other thing I read in that article, was that Mansell benefited
from
>a
>> > well sorted Newman Hass car. The car that Andretti had spent the
>previous
>> > season setting up.
>> >
>> > So, while I could never see MA as a "great" driver, in any sense of
the
>> > word, I don't think he was a steaming pile of ****e. He did achieve a
>lot
>> in
>> > the US racing series. But he never cut it at the highest level, which
is
>a
>> > pity. Had he been able to take F1 seriously he may well have do well
>there
>> > too.
>> >
>> > I can well understand why Americans may well, quite rightly, wor****p
MA,
>> but
>> > in a worldwide context, he doesn't amount to much. And that's a darn
>shame
>> > because IMHO he never gave himself a proper chance, and I reckon he
had
>> the
>> > talent to do a hell of a lot better in F1.
>> >
>> > I mean, JV won a F1 WDC for gods sake. Surely MA could have?
>> >
>> > AC
>>
>> Well, you seem a reasonable chap and made some worthy
>> points. I'd like to expand on a few, the veracity of which
>> were well publicized, that the jealous Andretti haters like
>> to either ignore, pretend didn't exist or wish that the facts
>> were otherwise.
>>
>> Many factors came together that limited Andretti's
>> op****tunity for quick success: unlike most other and
>> European drivers it was the first time he had seen those
>> tracks (let alone raced on them), the car was said to
>> be particularly difficult to drive that year, rules changes
>> greatly reduced testing time and Mika Hakkinen was
>> granted the bulk of that allocation. With Michael not
>> allowed to test, the need and value of his moving
>> to Europe was dubious at best (what would he do
>> while there?). In addition, there's clearly an anti-
>> American bias in F1, many others have done much
>> worse yet were allowed sufficient op****tunity to
>> fairly guage their talent.
>>
>> That being said I think the fact of the matter is that
>> neither Mario's nor Michael's successes were due
>> to an over abundance of natural talent. I believe that
>> the both of them (the latter more out of a sense of
>> obligation than the former) benefitted mainly from
>> sheer hard work, determination and perserverance,
>> virtues even more respectable than the achievement
>> of having been "born on 3rd base and thought of as
>> hitting a home run". Whereas Mario, a poor DP from
>> an immigrant camp was able to attain his goal as a
>> professional racer and is now considered one of the
>> world's greatest drivers, Michael is finally able to live
>> his own lifelong dream as a successful businessman.
>>
>
>
>Addendum:
>
>Re-reading your original post I noticed that I failed to
>address one other point you alluded to that I could and
>should have made that I've mentioned (twice) here before.
>
>Upon Michael's return to Cart from his F1 foray in the
>first race of the season, Nigel was again driving the reigning
>champion****p car the team of Michael and his father had
>for years developed. Michael however, despite piloting an
>untested, brand spanking new Reynard chassis with a 4 year
>formerly winless team, famously administered nothing short
>of a driving lesson to the former F1 champ (who admitted
>that a chimp could have won his only title in that world
>champion****p car) and earned Chip Ganassi Racing its first
>victory. It is my considered opinion that both this demoralizing
>turn of events played a part in old Nige's retirment at the end
>of the season and that if he is considered to be a great driver,
>then so too could Michael.
>
Surfers Paradise Australia, finished in the dusk. One of the first
calls he received was from Senna. Has/Had the Senna 'S' logo on his
cars ever since.
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